In 1980 I was with Leyland Vehicles when Robert Atkinson phoned me up and invited me join British Shipbuilders as Head of Personnel. I joined in December 1980 and went through three years with Atkinson. Then Graham Day joined and I worked very closely with him from 1983 to 1986. Graham left in 1986 to take over Leyland Motors, and Philip Hares took over, but had a heart attack at the end of 1986, and I was asked to take over as Chief Executive, which I did. I left in May 1987 and joined Sealink [a ferry operator] staying with them to August 1989, when I left to start up a joint consultancy firm.

The weaknesses for a newcomer to the shipbuilding industry were difficult to see, but they were there. Firstly, there was a high level of traditionalism. Secondly, management was highly introspective; it was very difficult to bring in anyone from outside the industry. The third problem was undoubtedly the trade unions. The industrial relations structure that was set up produced peace and stability, but it did not produce productivity and change. So what was done, to produce one negotiating body which had control from the centre, had the effect of actually producing a reduction in the number of major disputes. Therefore, we had more man hours in which to produce ships, but in my view the total effect of all this was to slow down the process of change. When I arrived at the end of 1980 there was a whole atmosphere of consensus, of joint ownership between the Trade Unions and the management, which reached the stage where nothing could happen in virtually anything unless there was joint agreement.

What I would have preferred to have happened is that they would have forced more changes in flexibility, interchangeability, productivity and through this produced more conflict. I think that the unions were in such control of the situation that the middle managers had lost their guts. I think that the trade unions were enormously powerful. They had marvellous leaders in people like Chalmers and Alex Ferry, who I still believe was the best union negotiator I ever encountered, and who had a perspective not many had.